Eduyos 8:6 — Does the Mikdash's sanctity endure after the Churban?

The Lived Mishnah·A Zeman Nakat Project
Tisha B'Av Series
Mishnah 34 of 41
אִם אֶשְׁכָּחֵךְ יְרוּשָׁלָיִם
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NezikinSederסדרנְזִיקִין
EduyosMesechtaמסכתעדיות
8Perekפרקח׳
6Mishnahמשנהו׳
נושא · Topicהַאִם קְדֻשַּׁת הַמִּקְדָּשׁ קַיֶּמֶת לְאַחַר הַחֻרְבָּן?Does the Mikdash's sanctity endure after the Churban?
This Mishnah is:a rulewhat does that mean?
Mishnah עדיות ח׳:ו׳ · Eduyos 8:6
אָמַר רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר, שָׁמַעְתִּי, כְּשֶׁהָיוּ בּוֹנִים בַּהֵיכָל, עוֹשִׂים קְלָעִים לַהֵיכָל וּקְלָעִים לָעֲזָרוֹת,
אֶלָּא שֶׁבַּהֵיכָל בּוֹנִים מִבַּחוּץ, וּבָעֲזָרָה בּוֹנִים מִבִּפְנִים.
אָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, שָׁמַעְתִּי,
שֶׁמַּקְרִיבִין אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵין בַּיִת,
וְאוֹכְלִים קָדְשֵׁי קָדָשִׁים אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵין קְלָעִים,
קָדָשִׁים קַלִּים וּמַעֲשֵׂר שֵׁנִי, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵין חוֹמָה,
שֶׁקְּדֻשָּׁה רִאשׁוֹנָה קִדְּשָׁה לִשְׁעָתָהּ וְקִדְּשָׁה לֶעָתִיד לָבֹא.
Said Rabbi Eliezer: I heard, when they were building in the Heichal, they made kelaim for the Heichal and kelaim for the azaros,
except that for the Heichal they built from outside, and for the azarah they built from inside.
Said Rabbi Yehoshua: I heard,
they sacrifice even though there is no House,
and they eat kodshei kodashim even though there are no kelaim,
[and they eat] kodashim kalim and maaser sheini, even though there is no wall,
because the first sanctification sanctified [the place] for its own time and sanctified [it] for the time to come.
A reading aid, not an exact translation.

This English is a clause-by-clause rendering to help you follow the Hebrew. It is not word-for-word literal, and it is not a transcript of the recorded shiur — the audio carries explanation and context the translation deliberately leaves out.

case/objectrestrictive rulingpermissive rulingTannareasoncondition
Structure
The Mishnah's Structure▾
אָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, שָׁמַעְתִּי
R' Yehoshua's testimony — the holy acts persist though each boundary-structure is gone
קָדָשִׁים קַלִּים וּמַעֲשֵׂר שֵׁנִיeaten though no חוֹמָה (city wall)אוֹכְלִים קָדְשֵׁיקָדָשִׁיםeaten though no קְלָעִים (curtains)שֶׁמַּקְרִיבִיןofferings — though the BeisHaMikdash is gone
שֶׁקְּדֻשָּׁה רִאשׁוֹנָה קִדְּשָׁה לִשְׁעָתָהּ וְקִדְּשָׁה לֶעָתִיד לָבֹא — the first sanctity holds for all time
Summary Chart
Does the Mikdash's sanctity endure after the Churban?▾
CaseRulingReason
What did they do when building the Heichal?Rabbi Eliezer: Hung kelaim (curtains) for the Heichal and the azaros while building—
May korbanos be brought after the Churban?Rabbi Yehoshua: Yes — even without the Beis HaMikdash standingKedushah rishonah sanctified for its time and for the future
May one eat kodshei kodashim now?Rabbi Yehoshua: Permitted — even without the kelaim(same)
May one eat kodashim kalim and maaser sheini now?Rabbi Yehoshua: Permitted — even without the wall(same)
Transcript
A machine transcript of the recorded shiur.

This is the shiur as spoken, transcribed automatically and left unedited — the wording is Ephraim's, and occasional transcription errors remain. It follows the audio word by word.

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Mishnah Insights
An amalgam of commentaries, including original insights.

These insights draw on the commentaries to this Mishnah and on the recorded shiur. Those commentaries often rest on earlier sources — the Gemara, the Yerushalmi, the Rishonim, and one another — without always saying so; where they do, we generally cite the one we read. Every commentary consulted is kept, verbatim, with this card.

The kedushah holds in the place, not the walls▾
עוֹלָמוֹ שֶׁל הַמִּשְׁנָה
Building behind the curtains

The mishnah records a curious detail and leaves it unexplained: when the returnees from Bavel rebuilt under Ezra, they hung kla'im — curtains — and then built the heichal walls outside them but the azara walls inside. The key is the kedushah of the site itself, which the curtains held during construction. Two purposes are given for them: to mark a pesach, an opening, so korbanos could resume before the building was finished; and tznius, screening the avodah from view. The build-direction then follows the holiness — the heichal, holiest, raised from outside the screen so no worker would stand within the most sacred space; the azaros, less holy, from inside. The mishnah gives the what; this is the why. Mishnat Eretz Yisrael adds the practical point: the curtains screened the building work from the korbanos so the daily avodah could continue uninterrupted while the walls went up.

The place holds the kedusha, not the walls

R' Yehoshua does not derive this from a verse — he says shamati, ‘I have a received tradition.’ That is the heart of its force: the permanence of the sanctity is known by mesorah, handed down, not argued by a limud that another could answer back. On that tradition: korbanos may be offered even with no Beis HaMikdash standing (as long as the makom hamizbeach is known), kodshei kodashim eaten with no kla'im, kodashim kalim and maaser sheni with no city wall — because kedushah rishonah kidsha lesha'atah v'kidsha le'asid lavo: the original sanctity never lapsed. Ezra 3:6 already records korbanos brought before the foundation was laid (Sha'arei Toras Bavel). In practice there is little evidence korbanos continued after the Churban, and after Bar Kochba it was all but impossible — so R' Yehoshua teaches the theological reality, that the sanctity of the place endures, not a lived practice.

שְׁאֵלַת חָכָם

Does the original kedushah still hold? The most basic stake: if it does, korbanos could in principle be brought on the Har HaBayis even today — yet most poskim do not rule that way, for various reasons. This mishnah's position is the operative seed of that whole discussion. The same unresolved question reaches what is live now — whether, and where, one may set foot on Har HaBayis given tumah and tahara, and whether maaser sheni grown today in the Old City or Ir David must be redeemed. Underneath sits the Rambam–Raavad debate (Kesef Mishneh): why should kedushah from chazakah outlast kedushah from conquest? — tzarich iyun.

Series Insights
Series context▾
← Previous
Maaser Sheini 1:6
Handling consecrated items — maaser sheini after the Churban
Mishnah 34 of 41
Eduyos 8:6
Consecrated items after the Churban
Next →
Rosh Hashanah 4:1
Shofar on Shabbos — RYbZ's takanah extending Temple practice

Where this sits: consecrated items after the Churban

One run of the series asks what becomes of consecrated items — terumah, maaser sheni, hekdesh — once the Bayis is gone and people may grow less careful with them. Some sources rule that maaser sheni can no longer be eaten in Yerushalayim and must be left to rot. This testimony preserves the opposite tradition: maaser sheni may still be eaten in Yerushalayim even with no walls. The Tosafos Yom Tov reconciles them — the ‘let it rot’ rulings are a rabbinic stringency against post-Churban laxity in purity, not a claim that Yerushalayim’s sanctity lapsed. That the sanctity outlasts the walls is the question sitting underneath the testimony.

Read alongside the other testimony in this series

Two testimonies from Maseches Eduyos — the masechta whose whole purpose is to fix what was attested so it cannot be lost — sit in this series, and together they answer two different post-Churban fears. The other one preserves a halacha of the Mikdash itself (the slaughter-area liquids that stay tahor): the recorded law survives, carried forward though the Bayis is gone. This one preserves the kedushah that law lived in — Yerushalayim’s sanctity for eating maaser sheni, walls or no walls. The transmitted law outlasts the Churban; so does the sanctity. That both reach us through Eduyos is fitting.

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